ALWATAN INTERVIEW, PART 2: “MB” IS THE REASON BEHIND “NDP” DISBANDING.. IT WAS NECESSARY TO REMAIN AS AN OPPONENT TO MB

Dr. Hossam Badrawi said that we had a more negative impression on education in Egypt than it is really. He pointed out that the real crisis laid in the management of the educational process. He explained that we had 450,000 classrooms that require 650,000, not 1,200,000 teachers, as some say. He demanded reformation to education faculties in order to have graduates efficient to work, and merging the two “education” ministries pointing out that he had a new way to get rid of private lessons, especially that it is related to the law of supply and demand, which is the only law that has succeeded throughout history. If you want to control it, you will fail. “Badrawi” assured in an exclusive interview with “Al-Watan” that he had elected “Al-Sisi”, that the Armed Forces had responded to the call of the people to get rid of the MB’s rule and that what the president and his government did in building the infrastructure was not sufficiently appreciated by people. He pointed out that since 1952 until now there was no political party in Egypt with a majority except the party related to the president. He said that the president needed a party to represent him, he had an ideology that must have been supported by a political party. He pointed out that Egypt passed through an exceptional circumstance that would end with the second term of the president. It is possible that we do not find this time characters that can compete «Al-Sisi». He warned of trying to change the term of presidency as the country might go back in time 100 years. Badrawi explained that the dissolution of the NDP after 2011 was a mistake and one of the reasons for the MB’s predominance; it should have been kept to be the opposition party. Below is the text of the dialogue:

«Badrawi»: I will not run for the next “presidential elections” because I still support «Al-Sisi» .. A competitor may appear in «Al-Sisi’s second term.»

• What is your opinion about the condition of education in Egypt? How can it be developed to be a tool in Egypt’s progress, not delay?

 

• There is a negative impression about education in Egypt because of much talking about the poor educational process. However, the real data of “quality and performance” are not available. In my point of view, the main sector of education which we must focus on is children and pupils. I would like to assure that this sector is one of best sectors we can imagine. Our children are born in a digital world and are able to use technology. They are “clever and ready”. Hence, the raw material is prepared and ready. Another thing is that we have 450,000 classrooms that need 650,000 teachers, not 1,200,000 teachers as it is said. However, we do not have qualified teachers, and there are many subjects that do not have teachers for, such as hobbies subjects “art, music and sports”. We find too many teachers in a governorate while another governorate lacks teachers. The education crisis is a matter of “management” not “education.” Are teachers able to learn, be trained and rise up to the level we need? Of course, yes. The idea is that we have the program we apply to them; we have 18 education colleges in Egypt that must be reformed to get a teacher ready to work. The obstacle is the education system, not the education itself.

What president Al-Sisi and his government did in building the infrastructure was not adequately appreciated by people.

• What is your opinion in «Higher Education» in the light of what you talked about in the basic education and what are our chances of improvement?

 

• “There is no such thing called higher education and lower education; it is all one education and the two ministries should be merged. I would like to stress that there is a chance in Egypt that has never been there in all its history. The whole world is moving and changing its educational system to use technology to provide everyone with knowledge. The world is changing, and the teacher no longer teaches students; he only facilitates the education process for them. You “stand” at the point from which the whole world moves. It is not right to go 20 years back. We have the opportunity to stand in the same level of the world, not behind it. We have to change with it.

 

• Are there clear methods to change with the world in education?

 

• Of course, there are clear methods. The issue needs a study of the infrastructure for using technology. At first, there is no education system without the support of family and community. If society does not trust the government, it will not change. You need to gain the trust of the community first. Such trust can come if the government took a step towards a specific stage and set a timed plan. The community and media shall act as the observer of that plan. If it succeeds greatly, the government shall gain the community trust and therefore people will support you and say “we can really improve”. The community spends about 30-40bn EGP of its budget per year in private lessons. This happens because it does not trust the government, meaning that the community is also ready to spend.

 

• You talked about billions spent by the community on private lessons .. How can we save it?

 

• The private lessons are a «headache» in the head of the community as a whole, while it can be eliminated by very simple means. It is a «symptom» to disease, which is poor management of education. If management is applied to education properly, it shall end, and I have a new way to eliminate it. The aim of all efforts exerted to eliminate it was how to prevent those who give private lessons from doing so, “those who give private lessons, how we can stop them”. Therefore, all attempts failed, because it is in fact an issue of supply and demand. The law of supply and demand is the only one that has succeeded throughout history. If I say, “I will control supply and demand, the result will be failure.”

 

• So how will you combat private lessons?

 

 

• First, it is possible to use the lack of demand. Anyone that gives private lessons is actually a “clever” teacher. Is there a way to make these teachers, through technology, available to all members of the community instead of giving them private lessons? Yes. I can make an application headed by the teacher. He gets money from the people through private lessons, and my idea is to make the teacher the head of the application through which he speaks and “earn more money” without violating the law. Second, I should introduce an answer to the question, why do people resort to private lessons? The answer is because they fear for their children in moving from one educational stage to another since the teacher controls that. I have a group of youth who made an assessment program that makes a student’s assessment not related to the teacher personally but rather to the teacher’s choice of a number of questions. It weakens much the teacher’s personal impact to move to the student. My goal is to decrease the demand and motivate the teachers to give private lessons in another legal framework and more general and at a lower cost. However, the teacher will be the winner.

Education crisis is in the management. We have to reform 18 colleges of education in Egypt to graduate teachers who are able to work.

 

• How can the teacher be a winner without raising his salary?

 

• A teacher gives private lessons to 400 students, and earns 70,000 EGP a month, no matter how much the teacher’s salary is, he will not reach this amount. My main idea is that I tell the teacher that he will give private lessons, but in a certain way through a computer application. The teacher usually receives 40 EGP from the student for each lesson. Instead of giving a lesson to 400 students only, the teacher will teach “2” million students. Each student enters into the application will pay only 1 EGP. Accordingly, the teacher’s income will not be only 70,000 EGP, but he will earn 150,000 EGP. In the Egyptian education system, from third grade of primary school till third grade of secondary school, we will get 20 teachers for each subject. Accordingly, we will take away demand, and will have 20 of the best teachers who can give private lessons to explain to students. The best teachers will compete to show the best performance. There will be country control over the quality of teacher’s performance. In this way, I would distribute the cost to everybody so that the family that used to pay 300 EGP per month will pay only 40 EGP.

 

• Have you completed this initiative? Will you send it to the new minister of education?

 

• Of course, totally completed, even its technology has been completed. I and the Minister of Education, Dr. Tarik Shawki, are in constant touch in all matters. I am sure he is capable of implementing the initiative I am talking about, if backed by the media, is supported politically and is given enough time by the community. If this happens, we will see a result after one year.

 

• How do you assess Egypt’s political situation now?

 

• First, I elected President Al-Sisi, and I see the Armed Force responded to people call to get rid of the MB’s rule. But I am one of the people who say that this is a temporary, not permanent, exceptional situation. Permanency means that there will be a real and true political life that will make a peaceful transition of power and without revolutions. In order to reach this stage, security must be restored. However, we do not like to depend on this pretext to stay in this transit phase for longer. In my opinion, what the president and his government have done in building the infrastructure, whether roads, ports, airports or energy, has not been adequately appreciated. All are very important infrastructure for any subsequent economical and social development. People do not feel its affects. Without it, however, the next move will not occur. This move requires political stability where the parties are effective in the parliament and the government represents majority, in order to achieve balance. We must take into account that the constitution states that the prime minister is almost equal to the president provided he is approved by majority. If there is no majority to choose the prime minister, it ends with having the president and the prime minister in one same box.

The world changes educational methods through technology and there is no “higher” and “lower” education. The two ministries must be merged …  I have a new way to get rid of “private lessons”.

 

• In your opinion, what is the reason behind the destruction of partisan life in Egypt and the absence of a party that can have majority?

 

• Since 1952 and up to date, there is no political party in Egypt with a majority except the party related to the president of the republic. Even this has not happened through elections but rather through joining the party following the elections. The NDP percentage of members was always 30% and the remaining joined it from outside.

 

• Do you think Al-Sisi needs a party to represent him?

 

• Of course, he needs a party, and he has an ideology that should be backed by a political party. It is not necessarily that the party head is the one who is elected president of the republic. In America, for example, in the presidential system, the one that is elected president of the republic is not the head of the party. But in the parliamentary system, like in the United Kingdom, the head of the government is not elected by all British people but only by people of its constituency.

 

• But the experiment of the power party that supports the president was not good?

 

• There is a new aspect now, and if this aspect alone was changed in the Constitution of 1971, it would have controlled the whole political life. It is Article 77, which provides for the presidency term and that it must not be more two terms. At the moment in which people know that the president will not continue in his position for a lifetime, the whole partisan life will change.

 

• Do you think that the presidential-parliamentary mixed system is not good for Egypt? Is the presidential system better?

 

• The experience of mixing both systems is not suitable for Egypt. From my point of view, we are in a democratic presidential system. We must be a clear democratic system. We must elect a president who comes with his government. The presidential system is suitable for our culture. This does not mean that the president has absolute freedom but he shall be held responsible in front of the parliament. However, the prime minister is the one who is held responsible today.

There is no political party in Egypt with a majority except for the one related to the president .. Al-Sisi needs a party to represent him.

 

• In your opinion, what are the challenges that face President Al-Sisi at this stage?

 

• First, over time, the number of Al-Sisi’s supporters is getting less, because people expected that things would be faster than they are. There were greater hopes than what could be achieved in reality. Second, the civil institutions, which were supposed to help the country, need so much reform. That is why the president had to resort to the Armed Forces in many issues. Third, the heavy internal and external security challenge. The president faces it strictly, frankly and seriously. Fourth, the keys to investment are not in our hands; they are in the hands of America and Europe so far. Tourism needs to revive and investment needs international relations rebalancing. I think the president exerted great effort in these relations. However, the internal challenge lies mainly in the economy and education. In education, for example, he needs effort to build the human structure that is capable of sustaining the country progress. The economical challenge requires greater investments in Egypt, return of tourism and new resources of energy. He faces a tough challenge that is difficult for a single person to endure, and all the state institutions must support him.

 

• How do you see the upcoming presidential elections, especially that no one can compete the president?

 

• I have no idea.

 

• Do you intend to run for the presidential elections?

 

• No, I still support President Al-Sisi.

 

• From now, we are supposed to know who will run for the elections.. How do you see it in the absence of such a person?

 

• I see that lack of competitiveness is very negative because competitiveness demonstrates performance and puts people on a stable ground. I think Egypt is in an exceptional circumstance that ends with the second term of the president. It is not possible in this term to find people that can compete with Al-Sisi, but we can find such people in the second term.

Egypt is in an “exceptional circumstance” that will end. However, we should not stay in this “transit” stage for longer time. The problem of the NDP was that its leaders were not changed and it included 3 million members, including liberals and the MB.

 

• Do you expect the constitution will be amended and the presidency term will be extended in way or another or its term will be amended?

 

• I do not expect so.. If the presidency term or extension thereof is changed, we will be back in time for a hundred years.

 

• There is a statement for you where you talked about the return of demolition factors reappearance in society.. What did you mean by that?

 

• I meant that I may agree with 70% of the policy of the president and his government. However, this does not mean that I do not have other ideas to offer sometimes. The idea of ​​disagreement does not mean that I demolish everything for just disagreement. Many opponents in Egypt aim to destroy the reality without giving an alternative. Many of them do not see the cumulative value of Egypt development. Egypt does not build today. We may not destroy everything to start over again. We must build based on the capabilities we have. I can disagree provided I have a limit, that is, not to destroy the state, that the homeland remains, that my limit remains inside me, and that I will stop at some point as what comes afterwards might destroy the homeland. I want everybody to have these tendencies. I can disagree with you, but I cannot disagree with the homeland. Anyone who disagrees with the government does not destroy the homeland. If you disagree with the government, it will be changed one day, but the homeland will remain forever. Let us preserve our homeland and disagree with the government.

 

• How could you prevent describing you as one of Mubarak’s figures?

 

• I am the same person and have not changed either with Mubarak or after his reign. I have the same opinions. When I look into what I was saying in the era of Mubarak, I wonder how they endured me. I was talking about the international monitoring of elections, the amendment of Article 77 on the presidency term and human rights. Moreover, I wrote the largest and most important human rights report in 2009 which condemned the government. I said this while I was in the NDP. I said that if President Mubarak won the elections with absolute majority, it would be a loss for the party and for him. I said that President Mubarak’s term was the last and a new president must have been elected. I am the same person. What I say in public is the same I say with my family and friends. I have nothing to hide. All I have to say is always the same and in the same way. I think this is what protected me in the last period.

 

• Was the NDP as bad as the people imagined?

• Of course not.. The NDP had 3 million members. It had different political tendencies from the far right to the far left. In my opinion the solution of the NDP after the 25 January 2011 Revolution was one of the reasons for MB’s predominance. It was wrong to dissolve the NDP as its leaders went away. We should have kept it to represent opposition. The NDP was established over 30 years and when it was dissolved, Al Wafd Party did not take the initiative to be the majority party. The arena was all left to the MB. There was a balance of power. This balance was known in Egypt: the NDP and the MB. The only coherent institution is the Armed Forces.

 

• What are the most significant internal problems of THE NDP?

 

• It was the same problems of the homeland: its leaders are not changed, the president remains without a specified term, and the main ideology was getting closer to the president, not oriented ideology. The NDP included liberals and the MB, free economists, leftists and communists. It had a mix of the whole society without any preference. It was a medial party. My experiment proved that we cannot be in the middle. Al Wafd Party, for example, represented my liberal ideas, but sometimes when I read Al Wafd newspaper, I find myself like reading a leftist party newspaper. It is not proper that Al Wafd Party speaks in the name of socialism. The idea is that we in Egypt are used to see everybody doing everything, and all parties have all forms and we stand in the middle. So, we have to choose our approach politically and follow it.

 

• What was behind the scene of your last meeting with Mubarak?

 

• “There is no personal relationship between us” and I was driven away from the Republican Palace in the last meeting because I told “Mubarak” to call for early presidential elections and to transfer power based on the constitution. Afterwards I left his office and was driven away. I do not want to talk more about this.

 

• Reconciliation with the MB .. Do you think it is possible or impossible to happen?

 

• Every Egyptian citizen that committed guilty against the homeland and was proven to be guilty, the law is the criterion. The political or Islamic trend of the MB is against the modern secular state. Eventually, MB citizens or others are Egyptians. I have a political, not individual, issue. I cannot say you are a MB; you are fired. If you are a MB, you are free as it is a relationship between you and the Lord, but politically you are a citizen that has rights and duties. There is no reconciliation with a political movement called the MB, but there is reconciliation with individuals who did not commit a crime; they are Egyptian citizens, even if we disagree with them. The idea of reconciliation with a religious political movement is wrong.