Dr. Hossam Badrawi Official Website
** We cannot say we are a modern civil state and imprison people for expressing their opinion.
** The people will not accept to extend the presidential term under any circumstances.
** I cannot relieve Al Sisi from his responsibility for the negative points since he has all threads.
** The parliament made people feel that they are at the full disposal of the government.
** I was not offered a ministerial position in the latest reshuffle.. I am honored to serve my country in any position.
** Mubarak said to me at the time of the revolution, “I will not allow assaulting a protester” and “there is no such a thing called the return of the National Democratic Party members.”
** I expected that Mubarak would be found innocent of “killing protesters”.. and Alaa & Gamal’s movements among people is “normal”.
“The politician of reform, warbler outside the flock, and the voice of opposition within the NDP. Nicknames that were titles to the political thinker and the president of “Takatof Association for Development,” Dr. Hossam Badrawi, who took over the mission of change inside the NDP in the most precise and critical period Egypt witnessed during 25 January Revolution, to the extent that some considered him swimming upstream for claiming the change.
For many years, Dr. Badrawi has raised the slogan of “Education is the Lifeline” as a means of change. He remained concerned with this issue, speaking about its importance in all international forums and events and considering it the hope of the state in real reform. He held many positions in the field of development of education and scientific research and has held many scientific high-level positions, whether political, social or international. Many milestones have witnessed Dr. Badrawi’s career throughout his life. He began as a junior player in Al Ahly Sporting Club, and then the Faculty of Medicine ended his football future, till his life train settled in politics station. “Al Tahrir Newspaper” had a dialogue with Dr. Badrawi to know his vision of the current political situation, his testimony to the period of former President Mubarak, his vision of the state of education in Egypt 6 years after January revolution and his assessment to the performance of the parliament and the government. The dialogue is as follows:
** First, how do you see the political situation in the light of the current variables?
We should first know that Egypt has undergone a severe crisis in the last six years, resulting in a huge decline on the economic, political, social, and service files. Since Egypt is a huge and deep-rooted country, it is not reasonable to restart from zero. Unfortunately, whenever the state [bodies] want to think about something new out of the box, we find bureaucracy in its expansion with much corruption interrupting the progress. The country must take serious steps to maintain real balance between starting over and going beyond deep bureaucracy. I would like here to assure that any state that had big economic crisis as in Egypt like what happened in the last years should focus on developing its infrastructure because it is the biggest field in which we spend money and that allows for work of maximum number of labor. However, the only disadvantage in such projects is that the impact of spending does not appear today but in the future. When we say that the state currently constructs airports, roads, sewage treatment plants, and ports, the income will not be noticeable to an ordinary citizen. However, without these projects, there will not be any investments, at which time the political work role comes. The question that arises in this context: Is the current condition proper? I say “Yes.” But, does what happen politically communicated to people so they can bear? I really doubt it.
** From your point of view, what is the reason for this?
In my point of view, the main reason for this is that the current government is not a political one but rather a government of technocrats. The government does not explain enough to people or tell them what it does, and on the other hand they no longer listen to it. Perhaps the only one who does so is President Abdel Fattah Al-Al Sisi. This issue is an additional burden on the president, because this burden is supposed to be distributed to a large socio-economic government and to the parliament which represents the voice of the citizen. I think that there is a widespread state of dissatisfaction with the political performance of the state. As the current ruling institution, i.e. the government and the regulatory institution “the parliament,” cannot achieve enough political action that satisfies a simple citizen. If we assume that the government and the parliament are doing a good job, the return of this work has not reached the citizen yet. I think this is the missing political link in Egypt.
** Do you mean that the main reason for this gab is the failure of the state institutions to market what they do?
Political action means marketing the ideas and persuading citizens to participate and accept them. Sometimes it may require trying to convince a citizen to what they do not benefit from at the moment but will benefit from in the future. Politics is a kind of marketing ideas. For success, however, people must participate and must believe you. You must be honest so you have credibility in what you will say afterwards. I imagine that this is about the culture of society which depicts that everything may happen quickly. In fact, they hear many promises, but they are not implemented. Repetition of such promises without being achieved may end with unbelief of what an official says. At the time, the idea of political process arises. It is based on marketing a good and an honest idea to convince the public and make them work with you. I prove this is with an example. “All agree that tutorials have become a gateway to corruption. For 20 years we have been saying that we would eliminate the tutorials. But, the phenomenon still exists up to date. So, if an official says we will eliminate the tutorials, will anyone believe him?” Definitely no. Disbelieving the official’s speech will force a citizen to seek this means as it is the best for their children’s success. Hence, what I want to emphasize is that if an official says something and then does it and the public believes him, they will stand behind him and will fully support him. We must keep in our mind that the main task of the Parliament is representing the people in the face of the government. This does not mean criticism only, but it does not necessarily mean agreeing only.
**You mean that the president works alone while the performance of the government and the parliament is weak?
It is clear to me as a citizen: the president is working with a small group of his assistants outside the government. This is demonstrated by the fact that every decision must be referred first to the president. On the other hand, the society accuses the president of all the mistakes and adds to him all the gains. So, the negatives of the government and the parliament are borne by the president. However, I cannot also relieve the president from his responsibility for these negatives because all threads are in his hand.
** You have been concerned with the issue of education over the past years. How do you see the situation now?
I am an optimistic man. The whole world is changed and changes the education system, as there are new developments, most notably that knowledge became available, and more importantly, in my opinion, that our children use digital technology; they use technology and we stand with the rest of the world in a new breakthrough. In my opinion, this is a chance. We have no problem with education but we have a real crisis in managing education. I think Egyptian students and children are very positive and have hope. They are willing to work. Unlike what some say that our curricula are not good, our curricula are good but the method of teaching it is not good. Our main issue in Egypt is school management. I mean that if children use digital technology, then teachers must be the same and even better than them. We cannot significantly move a child forward while a teacher is not qualified. The real challenge is to rehabilitate these teachers through good training. I expressly say, “If we move to the neutral digital calendar, everything will be automatically reformed as students and children are good and the educational programs are not as bad as we see.”
** How did you see the selection of Tarik Shawki as Minister of Education and Khaled Abdel Ghaffar as Minister of Higher Education?
I am very optimistic that Dr. Khaled Abdel Ghaffar was appointed as Minister of Higher Education. I know him very well. Tarik Shawki is a long-time companion in education. We shared and speak the same way in development. I think he is a good opportunity to develop education in Egypt. The problem is not in education content or ideas, but rather in the ideas we speak of. I think that the Ministry of Education is the most difficult ministry in management because it is the ministry that appoints the biggest number of people. It is the most bureaucratic ministry and may have much corruption. It is like a challenge for Tarik and I trust that he will succeed in developing and managing the educational process to the optimum. However, he needs political support and patience of the people and I feel pity with him, because he entered the “wasps’ nest.”
** What is the truth behind your refusal to an offer of a government position in the last cabinet reshuffle?
I serve my country in any place and at any time. What happened with me was an opinion survey on the issue of education. What I said or what I say may be unfit for the current government. It was put before me by the last ministerial reshuffle. But, I did not refuse. I frankly say, “In every ministerial reshuffle, the community nominates me; I am nominated by community, not government. I am honored of this. But eventually, I was not offered any positions in the latest ministerial reshuffle to reject”. My vision may not be compatible with the current government. I am sure that Dr. Tarik Shawki, who is harmonious with me in thinking, would do better than what I would do if I were a minister in the current government.
**Thus, I understand that you will not reject any ministerial position if it is offered to you?
I will not reject any ministerial position if it is offered to me. Any patriot will not refuse serving his country. But the main idea is that when you are offered a position, there must be an agreement on the team you will play with because you are not the only player. That team must have an idea. If there is an integral team and a clear idea, no matter how skillful you are, you will not win. I see that the government is not individuals but rather an integrated structure seeking to achieve a goal. But if we are looking for ministers and just changing names, it is possible that the work is excellent but one can’t achieve what he seeks because there is no team capable of achieving it. The issue is bigger than selecting a person.
** From your point of view, what is the reason behind decline of the current government performance?
First of all, I do not like to judge a performance without declared standards and after a suitable time passes, but in general I think there is an impression, which may be wrong, that the government lacks the Maestro, who must have a music note. I feel that every minister that plays a tone without a leader “Orchestra” doesn’t achieve anything at the end, although I personally see that they have a musical note, however, from the political perspective, people do not know that note. Let me emphasize that “we shouldn’t stand in-between. We may not do something and its opposite. We cannot tell people that we will create jobs and we hinder investment. We cannot say investment will happen only in the private sector and it is accused. We cannot say that we are a modern civil country and we have religious parties and imprison people for their opinions and debates. We cannot say that we are a free economical country while the state seeks owning and managing everything. We cannot say that we respect human rights and at the same time violate human rights to expand the security measures. We cannot say we want to revive tourism to while there is nothing changed in the way of dealing with tourists,” he said. All these are balances in which the country showed that it stands in-between and seeks to satisfy all parties. I think it is time to stop standing in-between.
** Some believe that the state establishes a one-voice policy as proved by investigation with Ibrahim Issa and exclusion of opponents, to what extent do you agree with this?
It is clear that the room for tolerance and acceptance of an opponent became smaller. Whoever plays alone, without competition, ends up with less performance and quality and higher cost. Whatever positive and patriotic are the intentions of the Authority, politics will end up to the same box. And I explicitly say, “yes, we are a state were the room for difference is too limited, and the less the room is, the more violent and extremism the opponents are. This does not mean that all opponents have bad intentions; however, we must not deal with everybody based on the mistakes of only one. We must have enough room to accept others. I see that the government considers the one that partly disagrees with it an enemy. This is non-political and unwise behavior. On the other hand, those who oppose do not give alternatives but only declare their objection. Unfortunately, there are no political alternatives before society. It gradually became a matter of “with or against.”
** In the light of your political experiences, how do you see Egypt’s foreign affairs policy?
I think that Al Sisi, day after day, acquires international credibility for Egypt. The main idea of the West about the regime in Egypt is that it is a military coup, but we see it as a call from people that ended up with the election of the President. It was clear to all that the West prevents any chance for us to survive economically and tourism-wise. I think that the present openness through Merkel’s visit to Cairo and the arrangement for the upcoming Egyptian-American summit may bring an economic breakthrough. This is a result of a foreign relationship that has wisdom and coordination. I want to point out that the most thing I am concerned about in the part of the upcoming “Egyptian-American” summit is that Trump is a businessman and does not give for free and I think that the political advisors of President Al Sisi must put all considerations into account about what Trump will ask Egypt to provide in return for what he will offer. President Al Sisi and his team must have a policy to what might be asked of them. It is known that we have respectful Ministry of Foreign Affairs and intelligence capable of taking these considerations into account. I hope that the president will depend on his people in the demands he might be asked by the US. Let us assume, for example: Israel still controls the US foreign policy and it is possible that the US will ask Egypt to make some geographical concessions for the benefit of the Palestinian state, such as Gaza and a part of northern Sinai. Hence, I hope that the president will depend on his people in this matter and be fully ready for such a matter. It may require organizing stands to express popular protest against this matter. Thus, when the president negotiates about the matter, he would tell the US that people reject it. I look for a symbiotic relationship in which I give support the negotiator, not to destroy him, and not to give any chance to attack him. The main idea is that the president moves within the framework of popular support so that he is a stronger negotiator if pressed.
** Can I conclude of your speech that the current regime failed to deal with “Tiran and Sanafir” issue?
This is true, I admit it. We should learn the lesson. I say it explicitly, legally, the supreme administrative court ruled that Tiran and Sanafir belonged to Egypt, but since I, as a person, do not have and I have not seen the supporting documents, and not aware of the details, I will consider the court judgment the truth.
** You warned more than once of the risk of population increase, what is the significance of this?
I would like to point out that Egypt is a rich, not a poor, country. If we look at the Egyptian national product, we will see that it comes third in the Arab national product. This did not come from a source of wealth but from the work of the citizens themselves. However, at the main time the census that increases divides the wealth on a larger number of people. When we talk about population, we should talk about the three main elements: number, quality and population distribution. If we do nothing, our number will be 180m people in 2050. Therefore, we need more schools, classes, health care, Infrastructure, water and energy. Any government today must work on providing that. Without providing these facilities, people will not feel any development. Today, we have overpopulation in Cairo and the countryside, small areas. So, the population distribution must be different. There must be a mind in the state that attracts people in different forms. As a politician, when I look at the map, I see that the issue of population growth that will happen, whether we like it or not, should be of the quality that brings wealth, not a burden on us or a cause of poverty. Hence, we need to reconsider the issue of population distribution significantly.
** Do you think that the New Administrative Capital achieves what you hope in this context?
Yes, but it is only one project within the framework of attracting population. There are several problems related to it, most notably of which is that the project remains close to Cairo. I wish it would be established away from Cairo within the framework of population attraction, not expulsion. We should think creatively to get people out of the narrow space we live in.
** Some criticized the state performance in the issue of exodus of Copts from Arish to Ismailia, what is your opinion in this?
This is, from my point of view, a major disaster because it means that religious extremists, representatives of ISIS thought and religious extremism have control over the area. It really bothers me. I find it shameful and unacceptable and hold the government responsible for it.
** Have you expected that Mubarak will be found completely innocent of “killing protesters”?
Of course, I expected the innocence. I assure that everyone has the right to say what he wants about Mubarak, but he never allowed for killing of the protesters. Mubarak told me personally, “I will not allow injury to any of the protesters.” Whether we like it or not, this man ruled Egypt for 30 years during which there were advantages and disadvantages. “We cannot fabricate accuses to him just because we have dispute with him, and since he was found innocent by judiciary, we must respect the judgment”.
** You witnessed the rule of Mubarak and some called you “Man of the Storm” and a book bearing this name was issued.. What is your testimony on the backstage incidents during that period?
I would like we go over the details in that period because it became valueless in history. I was there and I had a specific limit of vision. The basic thing I saw in that period was that the youth who came out in January 25 were (not looking for money) but rather for dignity, respect, and more political freedom and democracy. However, it went upside down, in my point of view, and I definitely the international intelligence intervention had a strong impact in the last days of that period which ended in chaos and demolition, not building. The lesson I learned from “January revolution” is that you can create impressions that create revolutions, regardless they are true or false. The professional media are capable of leading people in certain directions. There are no innocent things even if the beginning is innocent. I hope we learn from the lesson of “January” that is not right for a ruler to continue in office for a long time without limits, because it will certainly create this anger. If we change Article 77 of 1971 Constitution, on the term of office, it will be enough to transfer the whole society to real democracy, and there will be no need to resolve the Constitution and to enter into chaos. In my opinion, a revolution is an illegal and illegitimate expression at the moment of an event because the legal and legitimate expression becomes unavailable, and not possible. If we do not give people the right of freedom of expression, we will motivate them to revolute.
** Do you mean that “January revolution” turned into a conspiracy?
25 January was a great revolution of youth who seek freedom and dignity. Definitely, days after the revolution and the stepping down of President Mubarak from power, it turned into something else. The revolution was stolen by those that are organized most, spending most and connected most to the international intelligence, to end up with those that ruled at the end. I wonder: why is there a constitution in every country? The answer: because a constitution is the basis of laws that regulates the relationship among citizens, and its main value is that when there is disagreement among sons of the homeland, reference shall be to the constitution. What is strange is that in every dispute, we dissolve the Constitution, is this logic? When Mubarak stepped down, the Constitution was dissolved. When people called upon the army in 2013, we dissolved the Constitution. What is the guarantee that we will not dissolve the Constitution when next dispute arises? Does the Constitution become worthless? Our perspective of the Constitution must be one of respect even if we do not accept it. We must change it in the legal frame. Despite I have concerns about the current Constitution; I will respect it until its articles are changed. The thing that makes me worry most is “the idea that when we have a dispute, we remove our reference, i.e. the Constitution.” It is a coup because it means I decide to impose my opinion on everyone.” I say it explicitly, “The simplicity of dissolving the Constitution when a crisis occurs is a serious matter. I fear most because the Constitution contains articles that are not implemented despite people approved it, such as the articles that gives 5 years to apply decentralization, and the fact that I do not find any act taken against this matter. The Constitution states that we are a modern civil country, yet there are religious parties! All these are strange contradictions.”
** You agreed on the international observation of elections, rejected inheritance of positions, and you were the opposing voice in the National Democratic Party, why did you accept to take over the post of Chairman of the NDP Policy Committee?
I confirm it again; I serve the country at any time. At that moment, I saw that my existence in the position and my previous opinions may be a sign to the youth that there is a change happening. When I am close to the president and can reach him, I may prevent bloody events. My goal was that the power would be transferred legitimately. When I found that I could not achieve that goal, I resigned. If the revolution had failed, I would have been sentenced by Mubarak’s men. I held this responsibility, and I saw that I was serving my country at that time.
** Did the calls of some people to extend the office term of Al Sisi disturb you?
Let me assure that President Al Sisi and the people will never agree on this matter. I proposed the Committee of 50 that prepared the Constitution, in an official letter issued from me to the then head of the committee, Amr Musa, to include an article stating: “Any article of the Constitution that the current regime may exploit may not be amended.” I think the real gain that remains from (January revolution) up to date is that there is a fixed term of office, and this is irrevocable issue, from my point of view.”
** Some people saw the movements of Gamal and Alaa Mubarak and their appearance in public forums as a desire to return to the political life again.. What is your comment?
They are normal people. They have the right to live their lives and to act freely. Egyptian people love celebrities, and they act naturally. We should go beyond this after six years. I do not think they act according to a systematic plan or political ambition. They live their normal lives.
** Some people criticized the current regime after using of Mubarak regime figures.. how do you see this?
I want to remind everyone that the first prime minister after the revolution was Essam Sharaf and he was a member in the National Democratic Party, and Dr. Kamal Ganzouri, who close to Mubarak since he was Minister of Planning in late 1970s until he became prime minister in 1990s, was also a NDP member. Former Defense Minister Tantawi was the closest one to Mubarak. The issue has nothing to do with Mubarak’s figures. I say this and everyone knows that I am not one of Mubarak’s men, but I reject the selective view. The NDP had 3 million people from the far right to the far left, “and there is no such a thing called the return of Mubarak’s figures.” The former governments and prime ministers were members in the NDP, and ministers in the governments of Mubarak and the state companies that belong to him. The issue has nothing to do with the truth but rather with selectiveness. Whenever we want to attack somebody, we use this way. We should get out of this narrow frame and live for the future.
** As you are the head of a non-governmental organization, what is your reply to the criticisms to organizations of human rights which have been accused of many times of their illegal financing sources during the last period?
I would like to point out that the Egyptian non-profit civil society organizations deserve congratulations. The 15 organizations that met with the president a month and a half ago spent an estimated of 15bn EGP on civil society associations last year. In my point of view, non-profit civil organizations are like a “giant” that can back up the government and the state. I hope in any amendment to the laws that the benefits, not disadvantages, of NGO are taken into account. The Egyptian civil society organizations that work in the community seriously and highly professionally should not bear the mistakes of 10 or 15 organizations that might have worked against the state at some time. We must not generalize negatives but rather maintain achievements. I assure that I refuse to work against the state and the demolition of civil society institutions.
** What is your message to the parliament and the government?
I say to the parliament, “Deal gently with us; you represent people. You should not overstep us. The parliament should not give people the feeling of being in the “government pocket”. My impression might be wrong, but this impression has become the impression of the all society. For the government, I hope that they announce its “musical note” and the role of each player in it, in an integrated framework with clear defined objectives that enable us to judge it properly and enable the parliament to observe it’s performance because I imagine that there are positive things happen but people do not know about.”
** Many people do not know that you started your life as a junior player in Al Ahli Sports Club.. What are the reasons for changing your life course?
The faculty of medicine and “Hidegkuti”. When “Hidegkuti” came to train Al Ahli, he was training the team all day and night. I was 19 years old at the time and was a student at the faculty of medicine. I could not get along with the new training style, and decided to retire. I was playing on a team that had great football stars like Safwat Abdel Halim, Mustafa Abdou and Zizo. I was the first player to play in the first team.
** Finally, are you optimistic about the current course of the state?
Yes, I am always optimistic as I see the best of the citizens. We must have self-confidence. I want Egypt to be the source of enlightenment to the Arab world with its art and civilization. We must have faith that we will bring Egypt back to the state it deserves.
