ELWATAN NEWSPAPER DIALOGUE: DR. BADRAWI: MY NOMINATION TO THE CABINET IS POPULAR NOT OFFICIAL

Dr. Hossam Badrawi said that the main challenge Egypt would encounter during the next 50 years would be water, energy and provision of food. “Last cabinet reshuffle is the best since 2011. It includes long experienced ministers,” he said. He is optimistic about the new ministers, as each will offer something to the country. In his interview with “Elwatan”, Badrawi added that he saw Egypt standing on the same distance of everything, and anyone that tries to please everyone would lose all parties eventually. “I neither know the basis on which selecting ministers is based in Egypt currently nor I knew how they are selected before,” he said. He pointed out that he was optimistic about selecting Dr. Tarek Shawki as the Minister of Education. He called for supporting and be patient with him, revealing that he was communicating with him to take over the position of the Minister of Education, but that communication did not continue in the last month before announcing the reshuffle. Badrawi said that the reason that his name appeared frequently in each cabinet reshuffle was that his nomination was “popular,” not “official”.

Dr. Badrawi: “Egypt stands on the same distance, and anyone that tries to please everyone will lose all parties.”

Former leader in the National Democratic Party (NDP) explained that we needed to have a political minister, as we do not lack visions or policies, rather we lack communicating with people. Impression becomes a fact even if it does not have evidence. Our main problem is one of management and sustainability. Hence, the new government should feel stability as change of ministers makes us start “all over again.”

• What is your opinion in the last Cabinet reshuffle?
• In my opinion, it is the best since 2011, as all ministers that were selected have a well-defined history. I am optimistic about these ministers, as each of them will offer something to the country. I wish that this reshuffle would be accompanied with a public vision to society. This vision may be there, however it is not conveyed to society. This vision is a change in policies. This government parts are integral to each other; it does not work separately. This is done in a clear framework of 2030 Vision that was approved by the Republic President, so a citizen knows its path. I am optimistic but cautiously. I wish that there would be several ministries fused more than the fusion that was made in the last reshuffle. In addition, I wish that some profiles would be integrated in a wider framework.

The opposition in Egypt only rejects but does not offer an alternative. I am glad that we became bold enough to select a woman to act as a “governor.” A clear “note” must be developed so that people know what the government plans for in the upcoming stage. Water, energy and provision of food are major challenges facing Egypt during the upcoming 50 years.

• What do you mean by integrating some profiles?
• I mean the government are internally categorized and divided into profiles. Each profile has a person who will speak about it, whether a minister heading these ministries after they are integrated or deputy prime minister for this profile. Categories could be as follows, for example: the human development profile which includes education, culture, youth and media, the services profile that includes health, social solidarity, supply, etc., and the energy profile includes all energy sources such as oil, electricity, renewable energy, etc. In addition, there are the security profile and economic and financial policies profile. The purpose of this is that people see a clear note to let people know what the government is doing in the next stage. It is more likely that this exists. In my opinion, the political cabinet must convey it to the public.
• You talked about ministries integration, how do you see the integration of Ministry of Investment with Ministry of International Cooperation?
• I consider integrating Ministry of Investment with Ministry of International Cooperation is good. I would like to salute Dalia Khorshid, former Minister of Investment. I also believe that Minister Sahar Nasr is very good and the integration that was made is 100% correct.
• What is the difference that selecting a deputy prime minister for specific profiles can make?
• The difference will be very significant. We should have a person in charge for each profile, as the main challenge Egypt will encounter during the next 50 years will be water, energy and provision of food. For example, in the field of energy, we have good potentials for new discoveries. More important is the renewable energy from the sun and the wind, of which Egypt has more than any other country. Depleting available capacities inappropriately is considered waste. In addition, as for the water profile, 80% of the water goes for agriculture. The way of irrigation we use is flooding. Hence, 50% is wasted. Our export of rice, for example, is not of rice, but of water. A balance should be maintained in matters related to each other.
• Why do you think this reshuffle is the best since 2011?
• In the past, ministers were not known for anyone. The first time to see them was while they were taking the oath of office. I see that this cabinet includes figures with well-identified political and academic history. Dr. Ali Moselhy, for example, in addition to his hands-on experience in the ministry before, he is elected directly by people as a member of parliament. Hence, he has the public support feature. Dr. Hesham El Sherif of course is the godfather of the Cabinet’s Information and Decision Support Center (IDSC). He is the one that introduced technology to the government. His existence in this cabinet is a “significant gain.” Despite I see his cabinet goals are unclear, he may convey all domestic work to a more advanced technological shift. Also, Dr. Hala El Said is a very successful dean, effective member of Central Bank of Egypt, a participant in Egypt 2030 Vision and a politically experienced party with us over years. Thus, she is an addition. Former Planning Minister, Dr. Ashraf El-Araby, was an addition too. “I cannot understand why he was replaced.” He was one of the most successful ministers.

• What is your opinion in selecting Dr. Tarek Shawki as the Minister of Education?
• Shawki speaks the language of modern science. There is a lot of joint work between him and me. I am glad he is the Minister of Education. I strongly support him and I want society to be supportive to him and “patient on him.” This is a critical ministry and he has clear visions and goals. Since he was a member in the President’s advisory committees, he worked as an observer. He was a former participant in education committees with me. I am optimistic about him. I would like that we support him and be patient on him. There should be a political support to him as he is on the verge of a place where he might have to sharp decisions with many people. Corruption supports itself. If the line of corruption is broken in an area, you will find that the remaining line attacks you. We want to support Dr. Shawki. This is my opinion in the last cabinet reshuffle. I see it is good but it lacks the political aspect that says, “What they will do.”
• Why does the government lack a political minister? Which is better, the political or technocratic?
• Definitely, we need the political minister. We do not lack visions or policies, but we lack communicating with people, media and public. Communicating at all levels is a political action. The purpose of the political action is to convince people of what the government does. What the government makes may sometimes be unpopular but achieves a goal. If you do not convince people that you are serious, effective and have a goal, you will lose them. Thus, we need a political minister to convince people of what the government does. Egypt has many political figures.

I am optimistic about selecting Tarek Shawki as the Minister of Education. I call upon supporting him. “I cannot understand why Ashraf El-Araby was replaced.”

• Is non-selection of a political minister attributed to the government being unconvinced of its significance or to the partisan life having no figures that are fit to the office?
• I do not think we lack political figures that can serve as ministers. I see that it is an impression that we do not have partisan and political figures that can serve as ministers. The impression becomes reality, even if it has no evidence. The entire society has this impression. For example, people will be pleased to see a minister in a scene, e.g. when a minister of interior stands against a fire or a disaster, while he does not have to be there to manage such a crisis. If he stands against it, you will find the people are pleased. On the other hand, a minister of health does not have to perform surgeries by himself. In addition, a minister of education does not need to check “school bathrooms” to identify how they are hygienic so that he is described as a good minister. It is much bigger. When the minister does so, this might mean that he does not have a staff that performs their duty seriously and well. The main idea is how to offer your policy and convince the society of it, making it your supporter in hard stages. This is a political, not technocratic, action. Without it, you will not have people stood firmly by your side. If centralized cabinet is shifted to decentralized cabinet in governorates, you will need more of this type. If people do not support a political program, it is very difficult to fulfill it to the end. Our main problem is management and sustainability. Even the good things are not completely finished. Once the person is replaced, we start it all over. Having a political idea is important to the situation stability.
• Then, why a political minister is not selected? Are parties still working as incubators of political cadres?
• I do not know the reason for not selecting a political minister. I would like to confirm that the regime in Egypt does not select ministers from parties. Even Mubarak himself did not select any minister from parties, even NDP. The minister was selected first, then he would join NDP. Since 1952, all what we suffer is a decision maker’s disbelief in partisan life in Egypt. Since the revolution of July 1952 to date, the culture of Egyptian people has been approaching the Executive. This approach and alliance come as a result that other authorities are overwhelmed by the Executive. The one that wants to serve his area or country wants to have a good relation with the governors and officials in the governorate, from education director, health director, and so on. Egyptian formula concluded that everyone wants to be under the umbrella of the Executive and its bodies. Out of this circle, one cannot serve his area. This cultural accumulation made no ideological difference among parties.

The Egyptian regime did not select ministers from the parties. I believe that selecting is based on first-hand knowledge. Mubarak chose a minister first and then enlisted him in NDP. Integrating the Ministry of Investment with the Ministry of International Cooperation is 100% correct. Sahar Nasr is very good. We need a political minister to convince people of what the government does.

• What do you mean by “parties have no ideological differences?”
• Members of each party vary from the far-right to far-left. Effective government should not be in in-between that includes a liberal who supports the free economy and a leftist who supports the state ownership of everything. We cannot be in-between. Without clear political trends, the entire partisan life becomes the same. You cannot tell the difference between a party and another. I am sure that 90% do not know such differences. As I mentioned, it is an accumulative culture. People join a party because they know each other, not because they are engaged in its ideology. For example, if I say I adopt free economy idea, it is obvious that I support the private sector and the concept of profitability is a sound idea. The same applies if I adopt the idea of modern secular state or theocratic state. We should have a clear direction. If I adopt modern secular state, some matters will follow. For example, we may not have religious parties. Hence, I believe that Egypt takes an intermediate position in everything.
• Why are we in this position: an intermediate position in everything?
• Because we want to satisfy all sides. The one that tries to satisfy all sides will eventually lose all sides. I prefer that my government represents a certain well-defined ideology, with which some people agree and other people disagree. The disagreement here arises from having another path to reach this goal. If I say that my goal is to create a million jobs annually, the path I will announce is that I support investment, entry of a foreigner investor and support Egyptian investors to create job opportunities. This is a way of thinking. Another way of thinking may see that the best solution is the state investment by itself and creating job opportunities. This is a direction and that is another direction. They may not be combined in one government.
• What is the basis on which ministers are selected in Egypt?
• “I don’t know.” I did not know how they were selected before and I do not know how they are selected now. I think that a significant part of selecting ministers is based on the first-hand knowledge between the one that selects and the one that is selected. A significant part of this is based on the selection personality’s structure. It is an important part by the way. For example, if they decide to select a minister, they will say, for example, this personality needs a minor ministry and if we assign him this file, this person may have an opinion in other files. Probably this person is improper.
• Do we select the most proper or the best?
• The best can be selected, however he might be improper. We can select the second best and he is more proper. At the end, the selection will be for the one that agrees with my political trend or favored by security organs.
• Why did the state delay in announcing the cabinet reshuffle?
• It is a state of impression that people have. Any prime minister wants to do a reshuffle, meets with many figures. Note that we are a country that tends to secrecy. Everything happens in secrecy here. We should also notice that any prime minister that wants to do a reshuffle meets many candidates. Note that our country tends to secrecy; everything is done in secret. The constitution states that the government shall represent the parliamentary majority. Since we do not have parliamentary majority, the government are selected by the Presidential Executive in cooperation with different state organs. I see that 2030 Vision “may be a political, economic, social and cultural trend,” however it needs to be discussed so that it does have an in-between position. We should change this. Standing in-between will not take us anywhere. It is to select or not to select, it is accepting and rejecting at the same time, and it is standing in the same place. At selection, you will have a supporter and an oppositionist. This is democracy. The one that opposes you will not destroy you but rather will offer an alternative. The idea is that opposition in Egypt is one that rejects but offers no alternative.
• Why did governors reshuffle coincide with the cabinet reshuffle that included a new minister for local development?
• Minister of local development is not the head of governors. If you wanted to establish a policy, the minister should have participated in choosing governors. The state should give the minister the opportunity to determine what he needs, not to choose for him. Selecting a governor should be made according to specific criteria. A governor should be communicated, have his goals set, like the remaining state. We should let him work and measure his performance based on which we evaluate. Measuring performance should be according to clear standards. Change for just change, I do not think it is useful. Changing persons does not change reality. I wish, since we have to wait for two years according to the constitution to transform into decentralization, there would be a discussion about the governor’s role. If you ask people about who holds the governor accountable, they will not know.
• What is your opinion in choosing a woman to serve as a governor for the first time in Egypt?
• She is a distinguished experienced woman. I am glad that we are bold to choose a woman to serve as a governor, as every governorate has its own conditions. Any government, whether centralized or decentralized, wants to implement certain matters that people will admire and respect, such as education, health, transportation means, water, sewerage and cash subsidy for the poor to help them get out of the circle of poverty. “Any government that will do this in Egypt will succeed.”
• Recently, Egyptian people refuse the government decisions. Is it due to non-promotion of such decisions?
• If you mean that civil society has a greater role than before, the answer is yes. This is what we need. As for the public refusal, was it measured? The right thing is to have researches, knowledge and information to resist the impression. I want to point out that refusers have “a higher ceiling of satisfaction.” People who complain the most are those with the most potential, and the people that complain the least are those with the least potentials. Everything we have is impressionistic. Impression is wrong and must be measured; nothing cannot be measured. If I were the government, I would have measured it “even if it is against me.” I must measure the people and direct them to a scientific approach in identifying the public opinion. The public opinion is now created by talk shows, social media sometimes and in other times by newspapers. However, who measures? Where are the institutions that produce measures depending on scientific basis and approaches all the time? This should happen on a monthly basis.
• Were you communicated to serve as the minister of education?
• I cannot reject serving my country. Some figures communicated me to hold public service post, as a minister of education. However, the communication was discontinued in the last month before the cabinet reshuffle. I think it is a public nomination, not an official one. I thank the people for their confidence in me, in education file.
• Why were not you selected as a minister of education, though                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                this was confirmed more than once?
• Ask the one that selects, not me. I am always nominated to this post, but the nomination does not eventually turn into an effective decision. As I mentioned, “I am nominated by public.”